Superintendent Leaves June 22

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ArmyRoadFan7
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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by ArmyRoadFan7 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:49 pm

3seconddelay wrote:
BigNick wrote: My son and many of his classmates (Class of 2015) have told me that their companies had at least 5-10 graduating Cadets who were unfit to lead our soldiers and that the West Point officials were well aware of this situation but did not have the will or authority to separate these Cadets.

We must get a new Sup - hard core, battle tested, combat arms, focused, no-nonsense to reverse this tend.
My perspective, with my son and his classmates' (2019) experiences, is an inconsistent application of standards. The standards are there, but with increasing frequency there are USCC command exceptions made to minimum academic, physical and military standards, with second and third and even fourth chances granted. Superintendent discretion to not separate on a found honor violation, is an example of this. Honor Committees have not been completely cadet administered for a long time. Cadets frequently have lawyers now for Regimental and Brigade conduct Boards.

This started well before LTG Caslen's tenure. I think laying it on him is unfair. I do not think there is a direct correlation between the standards issue and Army athletics WINNING. The standards issue is much bigger than Army Football and LTG Caslen. It's West Point culture adapting to the world and overall LTG Caslen has it on the right path. Caslen is a winner and so is Army Football. Doesn't matter how big you are, you're going to hurt the next day after you play Army. Turning the losing culture of the football program around is a big deal. I trust the DoD is looking at the bigger standards issue and the perceptions surrounding it.

What is happening at West Point is going on military wide. The military has gradually turned into a PC cesspool. It has gotten completely out of control since around 2009-2010. I was hoping Mattis was going to clean a lot of this stuff up but his bark is obviously bigger than his bite.



ArmyRoadFan7
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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by ArmyRoadFan7 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:08 pm

As far as a new Superintendent it would be pretty difficult for Army to be in worse shape than Navy or Air Force on that front when you consider the two clowns that are in charge there.

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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by Dude69 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:47 pm

The West Point Corps of Cadets is supposed to represent a cross section of America by design. That is why there is a guaranteed opportunity for equal numbers of qualified candidates from ALL 50 states, territories etc. That is why Henry O'Flipper isn't the only black cadet at West Point today. That is why we there are females in the corps. Etc. The leadership of the Army should reflect the Army they lead.

And compared to 20, 30, or more years ago, receiving an appointment to West Point is much more difficult today. The quality and depth of qualified applicants has greatly increased. If I am wrong then so are all of the USMA liaisons who stand in front of 1000s of interested young people each year and say the very same thing. (And the liaisons for all of the other SAs for that matter.)

And the mission focus has changed from an attrition based strategy to a development based strategy. There will always be some left to right adjustments to keep a balance and maintain standards. It is not now and will not ever be perfect. You cannot please everyone.

When studying history it is imperative to do thorough research to accurately frame the context of a past period or event, before judging the decisions and actions of the society and individuals of that period or event. Otherwise, it is almost a certainty that your conclusion(s) will be inaccurate and biased to the context of your own experience.

Probably applicable to some of the posts to the topic.

I believe Sergeant Hulka said it best in this scene from Stripes:

Psycho: The name's Francis Soyer, but everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.

Leon: Ooooooh.

Psycho: You just made the list, buddy. And I don't like nobody touching my stuff. So just keep your meat-hooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you. Also, I don't like nobody touching me. Now, any of you homos touch me, and I'll kill you.

Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis.

Go Frogs
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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by Go Frogs » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Armorman, any idea when it will be announced? Can you at least say which class he/she is from and if he/she participated in a Corp squad sport like football... :)

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ARMORMAN
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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by ARMORMAN » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:17 pm

No
'83
FOOTBALL!

HOOOOOOOOOOOORAH

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

(nothing's certain until it's certain)


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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by wp1994 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:51 pm

Bottom line here folks, is that West Point is fine now, will be fine next year, and will be fine for many more years to come!

Are there some issues that need some attention? Absolutely. I’d bet a good amount of my next paycheck that LTG Caslen has either already discussed many of these issues with the heir apparent, and/or he left some detailed notes for him. We’ve been extremely blessed to have LTG and Mrs. Caslen at the helm for the last five years. They deserve nothing but the best in their next chapter.

The fact that we currently have a developmental model instead of an attrition model seems to bother a lot of folks (grads and non-grads alike). While everyone is entitled to their opinion, there is no obligation on the part of the Supe, or other leaders, to call each of you to solicit those opinions. I think that LTG Caslen has done a far better job than any Supe that I’ve seen lately at keeping people informed, across a number of methods (print, web, email, AOG publications, etc.). The attrition model just doesn’t make sense in today’s world. I’d love to tighten the line in some respects (honor cases for one), but in no way do I think we should return to the days of 25-33% attrition over four years. If we’re talking about getting the right leader in a gut check kind of situation, in many cases, I’d take a two or three time STAP veteran over a star man / woman.

Finally, for all of you whose only glimpse behind the WP facade is your son or daughter who is either a recent graduate, or current cadet, I’d caution you on that source. I talk to cadets every day during the academic year and through much of the summer; I’m often left very curious how they can remain so uninformed about what goes on around them every day. Many of them rarely look up from their cell phones enough to see any semblance of a big picture (I’m using the cell phones figuratively here). What also has not changed from my cadet days, or probably any cadet days, is that few cadets ever see themselves as a part of the problem in any discussion; we all know the problem there.

Again, back to where I started: West Point is fine. It’s been in good hands for the last five years, and the same will be true over the next five!

Beat ‘em!
Beat 'em!

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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by BigNick » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:45 pm

Interesting choice of words -"Inconsistent applications of standards"-- "Development strategy rather than attrition strategy". Politically correct corporate analysis .

I love West Point - I graduated form there-taught mathematics for 4 years, and had a son recently graduate. I am also a West Point admissions "officer" for two Congressional Districts. It pains me to see what ARE CLEARLY MUCH LOWER STANDARDS academically and militarily. We can parse our words however you like but the fact remains that substandard Cadets are graduating.

I am not a "Corps Has" grad. I believe the vast majority of our graduates are just as good if not better than in the past. However, I urge the Army to re-establish AND ENFORCE the traditionally high standards of West Point.

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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by LoneStarPhan » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:59 pm

Class of '83 football would have been playing under Ed Cavanaugh. That seems like a long time ago.

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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by wpgrad » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:01 pm

All of this threads reeks of "well back in my day" BS. If memory serves, back in the end of the vietnam era, you had very low applicant pools leading to less qualified cadets, for example. So, this idea that today's graduates are in some way "substandard" is just pat yourself on the back old-grad crap in my opinion. Are there changes that reflect the changes in our society in general today versus 1985? of course. But West Point is still a top 5 college in the US, and nothing I see day to day changes that opinion.

that being said, The Supe was the best of my lifetime. And Sal says the new supe is class of '83 footballer Darryl Williams.

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Re: Superintendent Leaves June 22

Post by RABBLE » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:17 pm

A sad day indeed with Gen Caslen retiring. A true warrior in the defense of Army Football.

Now we get another supe as we do every 5 years. I don't think we can do better than Caslen than supporting Army Football but we can do a helluva lot worse than our retiring General in the next one.

Therein lies a WP problem. It's like a revolving door (in and out). Bring in the next one. No continuity within this system and thus putting the program in possible peril once again. Same old story, the same old drumbeat. We might get a good one and again we might get a bad one. It all depends on whether the new guy gives a damn about the program or not . Will he support the old staid intelligencia professors who think only of the classroom and not of the playing field? Or will the new guy continue the new playing field ideals of Gen Caslen? It's a crapshoot. If it's left solely up to the Washington politicos, expect the former instead of the latter.

If it has a low priority in the new guys mind, expect another 10 or 12 straight defeats at the hands of Navy and AF. At Army, it is usually expected and unlike Navy and AF who seem historically to keep an even keel on such matters as producing adequate football teams no matter who their new supe is or will be.

Am I pessimistic on all of this? Hell, yes.

Why? I've been around this political crap for so long now. No wonder I have sustainable long term hope for Army Football's immediate future.


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