Thoughts

Discussing Army Black Knights football, basketball and more. United States Military Academy sports forum. West Point athletics discussion board.
Coach MC
Warrior
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:54 am
x 19
Contact:

Thoughts

Post by Coach MC »

I am glad I did not write this over the weekend, because I was in a state of disbelief and really disappointed by what I saw Saturday. Been super busy, plus it gave me a chance to reflect objectively. I spent so many years expecting to lose this game each year, that I think my disappointment was magnified because I really have expected us to win these last few years. I realize these games are a battle each year, but I thought, and still think, we have the better team.

We gifted them the first touchdown. Andre Carter should have maintained inside leverage on the reverse, so if he missed the tackle, it forces the ball carrier to bounce it outside where the sideline becomes another defender and it allows other defenders more time to rally to the ball. He is a super talented kid, but he has things to work on, like maintaining assignment integrity and setting a harder edge versus the run and not getting stuck on blocks. But he has a particular skill that will attrract NFL teams. The shoulder blows on that drive rather than breaking down, wrapping, and working through the ball carrier was really hard to watch.

I don't mean to pile on, but the decision to continually insert Tyler was inexplicable. Particularly since Anderson seemed healthy and we scored quickly on that first drive. Anderson is the superior player, pure and simple. Any momentum we had going was stalled. If you want to give the kid a series here and there toi keep Anderson fresh, I might understand that. But to switch QBs in the middle of a series is counter intuitive. With Tyler in, it becomes a wildcat setup or really the old single wing. It's fullback dive, or QB off tackle. No guess work for the defense. Put the kid at slot back or back as a returner and be done with it. JM's dogged insistence on this QB decision is puzzling to us all.

I agree with others that we should have stressed their perimeter defense more. Navy pursued hard, to the point of literally playing half the field. A few reverses might have yielded big results. Getting Anderson out on the perimeter with a trail (pitch) back needed to be utilized much more. Navy had a decided advantage with their defensive line, so getting out on the edge would have helped.

Our offensive line really had a poor day. And I'm not talking about their inability to control the line of scrimmage. It was more the miscommunciation and inability to identify the adjustments Navy was making with their front seven. There were quite a few instances I saw our linemen throw up their hands in frustration or motion to a linemate as if to ask what they were thinking.

Isaiah Alston is a Power 5 recruit. I've said that before and I will say it again. And Robinson isn't far off from that. However you do it, find a way to get the ball in their hands. Particularly in space. Let your playmakers make plays. Our predictabilty on offense I'm sure comes from the desire to limit turnovers and win the fireld position battle, but these games can turn on one or two plays.

Let me preface what I say next with this caveat. I still believe Jeff Monken brought this program out of the dark ages and into some national relevance. Say what you will about the schedule, but we have won MAC and CIC games we have not in the past. He has brought pride back to our football program. Which brings me to a main point. Saturday was not our finest hour as a staff. Our team did not look prepared or motivated. When you have two weeks to get ready, you spend the first week healing up, getting back in the weight room to rebuild foundational strength, and focusing on fundamentals. And the staff should be grinding film day and night, looking for schematic tendencies and tipoffs to certain plays. The second week is a specific gameplan. Our tendencis are easy. 2nd and long: counter boot. 3rd and long: QB delayed draw. Navy seemed to have us scouted perfectly. They consistently had free rushers and numbers advantages at the LOS. We looked as if we had the attitude of this is who we are and this is what we do, and we dare you to stop it. And Navy did. They were the dominant team despite the close score. They moved the ball more efficiently and continually won the line of scrimmage. We tackled poorly and did not execute the fundamentals well. We looked outprepared and outcoached.

Army, Navy, and Air Force play a similar brand of football and have similar recruiting profiles. Any of these teams can beat the others on any given day. Navy's record is an anomoly because they play in a meat grinder of a conference. These teams are all very evenly matched. So, you look for an advantage. You scout your opponent and scout some more. You put in a new wrinkle just for this game that might help. You give them different looks. Navy did not win because they play a better schedule. That's nonsense best left to the conference chest thumpers. Navy seemed to have a great game plan. They looked prepared. The enormity of the game can make kids forget the basics, I get that. But these young men have to be the epitome of calm under pressure, play assignment sound football, and impose their will on the opponent. When you end every sentence wth "Beat Navy" for an entire year, you expect your staff and the players to leave it all out there on the day of the actual game, not have unanswered questions about what happened.

Will we bounce back? Of course we will. We will more than likely play well against and beat Missouri. And we will continue to play good football moving forward. And I think we will beat Navy next year. But it is a long time between now and then, and they have bragging rights. Things look better today than they looked Sunday, but that's the nature of sports to a degree. It's a pleasure to share this board with other posters who have such a strong base of knowledge and such passion for Army football.
10 x
wpgrad
Warrior
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:49 pm
x 182
Contact:

Re: Thoughts

Post by wpgrad »

If we beat mizzou, I’d rather be 9-4 win a bowl win over an SEC team plus a few other good wins like Air Force versus 4-8 with a win over Army. This goes back to that old saying "if you lose every game but still beat navy is that all that matters."

To me, in 2021 with the success we've had, Navy is definitely crazy important but it is not THE most important thing. even with saturday's very bad showing, we've won 4 of the last 6.

Now...if we look like crap against MIzzou and lose....and end the year on a very bad note of 2 games....it changes the conversation.
2 x
JKillerK
Warrior
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:30 pm
x 22
Contact:

Re: Thoughts

Post by JKillerK »

Coach has given us the most comprehensive analysis of the game. He called a spade a spade. THANK YOU.
0 x
ArmyRoadFan7
Warrior
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:56 pm
x 23
x 32
Contact:

Re: Thoughts

Post by ArmyRoadFan7 »

wpgrad wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:19 am If we beat mizzou, I’d rather be 9-4 win a bowl win over an SEC team plus a few other good wins like Air Force versus 4-8 with a win over Army. This goes back to that old saying "if you lose every game but still beat navy is that all that matters."

To me, in 2021 with the success we've had, Navy is definitely crazy important but it is not THE most important thing. even with saturday's very bad showing, we've won 4 of the last 6.

Now...if we look like crap against MIzzou and lose....and end the year on a very bad note of 2 games....it changes the conversation.


You are in full spin mode right now. Navy is by far the most important thing. All we are going to hear during the bowl game and all of next season is “Army had a pretty good season in 2021 BUT they lost to Navy.” I won’t even get into the recruiting implications.
I will give you that retaining the CiC and beating Air Force makes it a little bit better but not much.

What is the most important thing? Beating Liberty, GA State and a disinterested Mizzou?
1 x
Dong Fong '09
Warrior
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:58 am
x 21
x 129
Contact:

Re: Thoughts

Post by Dong Fong '09 »

wpgrad wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:19 am If we beat mizzou, I’d rather be 9-4 win a bowl win over an SEC team plus a few other good wins like Air Force versus 4-8 with a win over Army. This goes back to that old saying "if you lose every game but still beat navy is that all that matters."

To me, in 2021 with the success we've had, Navy is definitely crazy important but it is not THE most important thing. even with saturday's very bad showing, we've won 4 of the last 6.

Now...if we look like crap against MIzzou and lose....and end the year on a very bad note of 2 games....it changes the conversation.
that's an interesting perspective. i think i'd rather beat navy than have a bowl appearance or a 9 win season. Losing to navy has taken some of the excitement of the bowl game away for me. i would have to say beating Navy is always THE most important thing and number one goal of our football season.
1 x
keco616
Warrior
Posts: 1228
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:14 pm
x 4
x 20
Contact:

Re: Thoughts

Post by keco616 »

Dong Fong '09 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:35 pm
wpgrad wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:19 am If we beat mizzou, I’d rather be 9-4 win a bowl win over an SEC team plus a few other good wins like Air Force versus 4-8 with a win over Army. This goes back to that old saying "if you lose every game but still beat navy is that all that matters."

To me, in 2021 with the success we've had, Navy is definitely crazy important but it is not THE most important thing. even with saturday's very bad showing, we've won 4 of the last 6.

Now...if we look like crap against MIzzou and lose....and end the year on a very bad note of 2 games....it changes the conversation.
that's an interesting perspective. i think i'd rather beat navy than have a bowl appearance or a 9 win season. Losing to navy has taken some of the excitement of the bowl game away for me. i would have to say beating Navy is always THE most important thing and number one goal of our football season.

It is a combination of achieving both, for sure. That said, it just isn't going to happen every year. I'm confident Army is still in the lead amongst service academies, but the margin is getting thinner (obviously). Right now, surely Navy is carrying momentum. That will tip if Army gets a statement win over Mizzou as recency resonates. I fully expect that next week, and Army will hit the recruiting trail with a bowl win over the SEC - that's huge. Navy talks about how hard their schedule is, I'd rather talk about beating an SEC team.
0 x
User avatar
kfan12
Warrior
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:33 am
x 5
x 58
Contact:

Re: Thoughts

Post by kfan12 »

Great stuff there.

-- One of the things that really bothered me was the lack of emotion and fight in the team. I was mad for two days over the lack of fight. I can't imagine the 2016 or 2017 version of Army allowing a dirty play, like FAGOT's attempt to injure their team mate, to go without response. FAGOT should have gotten his butt kicked. There were other late hits as well. On Army's last offensive play of the game a Navy defender intentionally rips the helmet off your QB and everyone just slumps off the field? Not even the QB responds? What the hell is that? I don't know if that is about Monken's relationship with Niumatalolo or what, but you can't let a rival get away with crap like that and expect to win. Frankly, the lack of fight is why the line is getting stoned as often as it does.

-- I don't get playing Tyler at all. Obvious limitations in yards after contact, sub-par passer. If the O-line isn't dominant, he cannot move the ball. Add to that his propensity to trip himself over the back of O-line legs, he should not be out there. Coaches' decisions with regard to his playing are completely inexplicable.

Brent Davis is in a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position. The basic offense works well against most opponents. His ability to game plan for a specific team, make in-game adjustments and manage the "trick" play seem outside his skill set. Timing, execution, etc., he just seems snake bitten...

On another note, FAGOT was a dirty player. Should have been kicked out in the first half. I shudder to imagine what his subordinates will endure.
1 x
BG
User avatar
PrideandDream
Warrior
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:36 am
x 6
x 85
Contact:

Re: Thoughts

Post by PrideandDream »

Dong Fong '09 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:35 pm
wpgrad wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:19 am If we beat mizzou, I’d rather be 9-4 win a bowl win over an SEC team plus a few other good wins like Air Force versus 4-8 with a win over Army. This goes back to that old saying "if you lose every game but still beat navy is that all that matters."

To me, in 2021 with the success we've had, Navy is definitely crazy important but it is not THE most important thing. even with saturday's very bad showing, we've won 4 of the last 6.

Now...if we look like crap against MIzzou and lose....and end the year on a very bad note of 2 games....it changes the conversation.
that's an interesting perspective. i think i'd rather beat navy than have a bowl appearance or a 9 win season. Losing to navy has taken some of the excitement of the bowl game away for me. i would have to say beating Navy is always THE most important thing and number one goal of our football season.
I assume you are class of '09. And if so I would assume that you probably haven't experienced a year with a losing record and a win over Navy. I can tell you it takes sting out of your season but still sucks. I only played on one team that experienced this and it was a tough year. And while Navy helped it does not compare to beating Air Force, having a winning season, and making a bowl. I'll take the wins and a bowl every time.
0 x
FSUBulldog0
Warrior
Posts: 560
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:31 pm
Location: Denver
x 16
x 16
Contact:

Re: Thoughts

Post by FSUBulldog0 »

PrideandDream wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:38 pm
Dong Fong '09 wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:35 pm
wpgrad wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:19 am If we beat mizzou, I’d rather be 9-4 win a bowl win over an SEC team plus a few other good wins like Air Force versus 4-8 with a win over Army. This goes back to that old saying "if you lose every game but still beat navy is that all that matters."

To me, in 2021 with the success we've had, Navy is definitely crazy important but it is not THE most important thing. even with saturday's very bad showing, we've won 4 of the last 6.

Now...if we look like crap against MIzzou and lose....and end the year on a very bad note of 2 games....it changes the conversation.
that's an interesting perspective. i think i'd rather beat navy than have a bowl appearance or a 9 win season. Losing to navy has taken some of the excitement of the bowl game away for me. i would have to say beating Navy is always THE most important thing and number one goal of our football season.
I assume you are class of '09. And if so I would assume that you probably haven't experienced a year with a losing record and a win over Navy. I can tell you it takes sting out of your season but still sucks. I only played on one team that experienced this and it was a tough year. And while Navy helped it does not compare to beating Air Force, having a winning season, and making a bowl. I'll take the wins and a bowl every time.
I think the question is: How good would that season have felt if we lost to Navy? 96 was a fun season as a fan. Beating Air Force was great. Would a loss to Navy have ruined the rest? We never lost to Navy in that timeframe and it’s hard to know how that feels as a cadet.
0 x
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 3seconddelay, Ahrefs [Bot], ARMORMAN, Army Frog Fan, ArmyRedLeg, Dong Fong '09, GO 150s 87, GoArmy72, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], JKillerK, Majestic-12 [Bot], michie29, Oliphant, PrideandDream, rog66, stash76, Tanker79, thedoc85, Usma80 and 121 guests