Best QB’s Since 2009

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Dong Fong '09
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Re: Best QB’s Since 2009

Post by Dong Fong '09 »

Constant69 wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:46 pm Trent Steelman doesn't belong on this list. Let me recap his 4 year history of starting QB at West Point:

17 Win - 31 Loss

Navy 0 - 4

AFA 1-3

Steelman was not a winner. He was the losingest starting QB in NCAA history. We all know the reason: no ball security. Just from memory his record was against Hawaii: 8 fumbles. And of course the agonizing last fumble of his career, on the Navy 9 yard line.

Steelman and Ellerson never thought it was important enough to correct this flaw, or sit down until he could hang onto the ball. And peripherally, the above is almost exactly Ellerson's record at WP, except he went on for a 5th year and lost 9 more games before being dismissed. So he won't be on any top Army coaches lists, either.

Recalling all this is not a good way to start my Saturday morning.
Steelman under monken would’ve been great. We could’ve used him on our teams the past three years
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wpgrad
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Re: Best QB’s Since 2009

Post by wpgrad »

Criticism of Steelman and calling him the "losingest" qb is just stupid. First, the only way to come close to a record like that is if you are the starter for FOUR years, which is essentially unprecedented in Army football. Kansas state the 4 years leading up to Bill Snyder was 3-40-1. The only thing was they didn't have someone good enough to start all 4 years. Second, steelman was hurt many of those "losses" so it isn't a loss for him.

Steelman played hurt all the time. Broken ribs. disclocated shoulder. etc. It is a shame he was stuck playing on a team with a horrendous coach in a culture that repeatedly said stupid shi& like "its okay if we lose, cause we have bigger battles to fight once we graduate." Army was the worst D1 program on the field and had the worst D1 leadership in the NCAA, from about 1997 to the arrival of monken and Caslen. You wanna blame somebody, stick with the Army leadership.

Steelman under Monken goes down as the best QB in service academy history.
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gabn92
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Re: Best QB’s Since 2009

Post by gabn92 »

More facts bearing on this discussion, Army statistical leaders:

Rushing yards: Steelman is #3 all-time behind only Mayweather and Carlton Jones
Single season rushing yards: #5 with 1,248 (2012)
Rushing TD's: #1 all-time with 45
Single season TDs: #1 with 17 (tied with Carlton Jones)
Single game TD's: #3 with 4 (tied with a number of players)
Passing yards: #7 with 2,723 yards
Passing TD's: #9 with 14
Total offense: #2 with 6,043 yards

Of course winning matters, but this is a TEAM game and not all the losses during his tenure are on his shoulders. From his personal stats and through his durability and talent (4-year starter), it's clear he most definitely contributed greatly to many of those wins during that era.

Under the logic that the only stat that matters is the W-L record, a player like Barry Sanders would be excluded from a discussion like this because he played his career for the hapless Detroit Lions. He was inducted into the NFL Hall of Fame based on his personal talent and stats. Winning matters and for talented players on losing teams, their stats have to overcome that stigma.

In Steelman's case, I think his overall career stats can't be ignored. He was clearly one of Army's best QB's. It's a shame he played when he did. I think arguing otherwise is either based on emotion or a tendency to put all the blame for a TEAM game on 1 person. The only time that is appropriate is with the Head Coach.
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Constant69
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"Of course winning matters . . ."

Post by Constant69 »

Yes, it does, doesn't it. Steelman was not a winner. He was not a starting QB like Bradshaw, as an outstanding example. When the chips were down, Bradshaw could put the team on his back and win the game, to quote Armorman. Hopkins 1.0 could do that too. When the chips were down, Steelman was as likely to fumble as do something worthwhile. Witness his last game against Navy.

"is he a winner?" Sorry, that's the only proper measure of a starting QB. Steelman failed the test, repeatedly. I classify him with Todd Berry, Bobby Ross, and his coach, Rich Ellerson. People who tried to use Army football to feed their own egos, rather than to Serve.
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hammerdown
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Re: Best QB’s Since 2009

Post by hammerdown »

If your only going back to 2009 (13years),
Steelman QB 4 of those years. Putting
him #5 is not that crazy. He is the only
guy mentioned that was not under JM.

Now if you go back to when Jim Young
started option football at Army in 1984.
You bring in Sassman, McCada, Crawford
and a few names I’m missing. Steelman falls
way down the list.
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wpgrad
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Re: "Of course winning matters . . ."

Post by wpgrad »

Constant69 wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:00 pm Yes, it does, doesn't it. Steelman was not a winner. He was not a starting QB like Bradshaw, as an outstanding example. When the chips were down, Bradshaw could put the team on his back and win the game, to quote Armorman. Hopkins 1.0 could do that too. When the chips were down, Steelman was as likely to fumble as do something worthwhile. Witness his last game against Navy.

"is he a winner?" Sorry, that's the only proper measure of a starting QB. Steelman failed the test, repeatedly. I classify him with Todd Berry, Bobby Ross, and his coach, Rich Ellerson. People who tried to use Army football to feed their own egos, rather than to Serve.
What about joe gerena. Chad jenkins. Zac Dahman. etc. Are they all "losers" too because they got stuck playing for Army when Army had crappy coaches and a horseshi* administration?
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FSUBulldog0
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Re: Best QB’s Since 2009

Post by FSUBulldog0 »

Steelman would have been a great QB under Monken. Monken (and Davis) made the offense easier to run by limiting the number of true option plays and calling what option he wanted the QB to take. That does two things. It limits the upside on the play (hence the lower rushing yards per game under Monken vs Ellerson) and limits the opportunity for turnovers (I think we all remember the turnover issues under Ellerson). With the Monken/Davis offense, I suspect we would have seen fewer turnovers out of Steelman. Ball handling would be different and that was really Steelman’s biggest weakness.

When the option was common in the 70’s and 80’s, triple teams fumbled the ball quite often. I remember Barry Switzer stating this in his book (Bootlegger’s Boy). Oklahoma would often fumble 5 times in a game but had the athletes on offense and defense to overcome those fumbles. Army doesn’t have those athletes.
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gabn92
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Re: Best QB’s Since 2009

Post by gabn92 »

There’s 64 crayons in that box…you can use more than the black and white crayons when you color lol.

If the discussion was about “winningest” QBs, then it’s appropriate to focus only on the record.

We’re talking “best” and that incorporates other factors like talent. There is more to it than just who won the most games. That’s a quick statistical check and end of discussion.
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keco616
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Re: Best QB’s Since 2009

Post by keco616 »

3seconddelay wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:57 am Steelman is pretty close to the most losses as a starter. The only one I can find with more is Jay Cutler, 11-35 at Vanderbilt.
It kind of makes the point erroneous as 'the losingest QB" is a top 10 pick in the NFL draft.

Steelman was a very good player, despite a shambles of a program he played within during the Ellerson era.

I do recall Steelman winning a bowl game with big plays down the stretch, and single handedly beating a power 5 team in BC with determination late in the game. Just because nobody was a winner in the Ellerson years doesn't diminish the quality of very good players like Steve Anderson, Josh McNary, and Trent Steelman, even a pro bowl NFL tackle who didn't really feature.

Steelman is easily a top 5 QB of the last 20 years. He also scored more TDs than any player in Army history.
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Go Frogs
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Re: Best QB’s Since 2009

Post by Go Frogs »

Rob Healy needs to be on this list.....Drafted in 1986 (Mr. Irrelevant). Signed with the Green bay Packers.
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