Heard of the undefeated Harding Bisons?....

[PrideandDream]

Funny how Troy Calhoun doesn't say you can't run under center. Neither does Newberry. Monken is the one who hasn't figured it out o\Academy games are always hard fought. And this year's Air Force game is a statistical outlier. Sure we beat both. We weren't any better than we've been in the past. We kicked 3 FGs on a short field off of turnovers. And we scored Zero points in the 2nd half.

I'll help you with the Air Force game. We had 1 drive that had more than 7 plays. We got 3 turnovers in the 2nd half and scored zero points. We had 13 total possessions and punted 6 times. We had 1 turnover on downs because we couldn't convert 4th and 1. And one possession that was the end of the game. So 5 possessions produced points. Here they are:

1st Possession and a Bryson Daily 62 yard TD run. 4 Plays
2nd Possession started on the Air Force 34 due to an AFA turnover on downs 4 plays later we kicked a FG from the 28
3rd Possession started on the Air Force 43 due to an AFA fumble. 11 plays later TD
4th Possession started on the Air Force 47 due to an AFA fumble 6 plays later we kick a FG from the 23
7th Possession started on the Air Force 25 due to an Interception 5 plays later we kick a FG from the 21

We effectively scored 20 of the 23 points almost entirely in the 1st quarter. Then we did jack squat the rest of the game. Win? Sure well played? Not by a long stretch. We get 3 more turnovers in the 2nd half and produce no points. All of this and we still had 6 yards total fewer than Air Force that day and we had 11 penalties.

Frankly we were lucky we won both AF and Navy. And easily both those games could have turned out differently. Maybe just our time to have some luck. Truth is our defense and special teams won both games. Our offense did very little in either tame to contribute. Kudos to monken for finding a way but that won't last over time.

I'm happy for you to list out how any offensive changes cumulatively helped us be better this year? I'd love to see your list. 3rd Down Conversions? Time of Possession? Red Zone conversions? Rushing yards? Passing completions %? Passing yards? TDs? Fumbles? Interceptions? Average Rushing Yards? Why don't you go compare all those between 2022 and 2023 and figure out where the overall improvement lies? The ultimate proof is that in the middle of bowl season while even lots of bad teams are in bowls we are at home. That is bad for player development, recruiting, and for money to the Athletic Department. So there are lots of losses we are incurring due to this debacle. But hey we won a trophy.

PD

[ArmyRoadFan7]

Funny how Troy Calhoun doesn't say you can't run under center. Neither does Newberry. Monken is the one who hasn't figured it out o\Academy games are always hard fought. And this year's Air Force game is a statistical outlier. Sure we beat both. We weren't any better than we've been in the past. We kicked 3 FGs on a short field off of turnovers. And we scored Zero points in the 2nd half.

I'll help you with the Air Force game. We had 1 drive that had more than 7 plays. We got 3 turnovers in the 2nd half and scored zero points. We had 13 total possessions and punted 6 times. We had 1 turnover on downs because we couldn't convert 4th and 1. And one possession that was the end of the game. So 5 possessions produced points. Here they are:

1st Possession and a Bryson Daily 62 yard TD run. 4 Plays
2nd Possession started on the Air Force 34 due to an AFA turnover on downs 4 plays later we kicked a FG from the 28
3rd Possession started on the Air Force 43 due to an AFA fumble. 11 plays later TD
4th Possession started on the Air Force 47 due to an AFA fumble 6 plays later we kick a FG from the 23
7th Possession started on the Air Force 25 due to an Interception 5 plays later we kick a FG from the 21

We effectively scored 20 of the 23 points almost entirely in the 1st quarter. Then we did jack squat the rest of the game. Win? Sure well played? Not by a long stretch. We get 3 more turnovers in the 2nd half and produce no points. All of this and we still had 6 yards total fewer than Air Force that day and we had 11 penalties.

Frankly we were lucky we won both AF and Navy. And easily both those games could have turned out differently. Maybe just our time to have some luck. Truth is our defense and special teams won both games. Our offense did very little in either tame to contribute. Kudos to monken for finding a way but that won't last over time.

I'm happy for you to list out how any offensive changes cumulatively helped us be better this year? I'd love to see your list. 3rd Down Conversions? Time of Possession? Red Zone conversions? Rushing yards? Passing completions %? Passing yards? TDs? Fumbles? Interceptions? Average Rushing Yards? Why don't you go compare all those between 2022 and 2023 and figure out where the overall improvement lies? The ultimate proof is that in the middle of bowl season while even lots of bad teams are in bowls we are at home. That is bad for player development, recruiting, and for money to the Athletic Department. So there are lots of losses we are incurring due to this debacle. But hey we won a trophy.

PD

Our crappy new offense rushed for over 200 yards against Navy and Air Force this year. When is the last time we did that? I prefer under center as well and think we should run it against everybody but Air Force and Navy. Last year we had 1 offensive touchdown in regulation against Air Force and Navy. This year we had 3. Air Force and Navy both had problems defending the gun option this year. Our new offense put together some drives in the second half that didn’t produce points but flipped the field on Navy which is huge considering how bad our punting game is.

You are just upset you didn’t get your A Tale of Two Cities I told you so moment that you had been setting up all year for the Air Force game. It blew up in your face. You would rather see Army lose and be right then have Army win and admit that the new offense was a factor in beating Air Force and Navy. Shame on you….

[wpgrad]

Funny how Troy Calhoun doesn't say you can't run under center. Neither does Newberry. Monken is the one who hasn't figured it out o\Academy games are always hard fought. And this year's Air Force game is a statistical outlier. Sure we beat both. We weren't any better than we've been in the past. We kicked 3 FGs on a short field off of turnovers. And we scored Zero points in the 2nd half.

I'll help you with the Air Force game. We had 1 drive that had more than 7 plays. We got 3 turnovers in the 2nd half and scored zero points. We had 13 total possessions and punted 6 times. We had 1 turnover on downs because we couldn't convert 4th and 1. And one possession that was the end of the game. So 5 possessions produced points. Here they are:

1st Possession and a Bryson Daily 62 yard TD run. 4 Plays
2nd Possession started on the Air Force 34 due to an AFA turnover on downs 4 plays later we kicked a FG from the 28
3rd Possession started on the Air Force 43 due to an AFA fumble. 11 plays later TD
4th Possession started on the Air Force 47 due to an AFA fumble 6 plays later we kick a FG from the 23
7th Possession started on the Air Force 25 due to an Interception 5 plays later we kick a FG from the 21

We effectively scored 20 of the 23 points almost entirely in the 1st quarter. Then we did jack squat the rest of the game. Win? Sure well played? Not by a long stretch. We get 3 more turnovers in the 2nd half and produce no points. All of this and we still had 6 yards total fewer than Air Force that day and we had 11 penalties.

Frankly we were lucky we won both AF and Navy. And easily both those games could have turned out differently. Maybe just our time to have some luck. Truth is our defense and special teams won both games. Our offense did very little in either tame to contribute. Kudos to monken for finding a way but that won't last over time.

I'm happy for you to list out how any offensive changes cumulatively helped us be better this year? I'd love to see your list. 3rd Down Conversions? Time of Possession? Red Zone conversions? Rushing yards? Passing completions %? Passing yards? TDs? Fumbles? Interceptions? Average Rushing Yards? Why don't you go compare all those between 2022 and 2023 and figure out where the overall improvement lies? The ultimate proof is that in the middle of bowl season while even lots of bad teams are in bowls we are at home. That is bad for player development, recruiting, and for money to the Athletic Department. So there are lots of losses we are incurring due to this debacle. But hey we won a trophy.

PD

Our crappy new offense rushed for over 200 yards against Navy and Air Force this year. When is the last time we did that? I prefer under center as well and think we should run it against everybody but Air Force and Navy. Last year we had 1 offensive touchdown in regulation against Air Force and Navy. This year we had 3. Air Force and Navy both had problems defending the gun option this year. Our new offense put together some drives in the second half that didn’t produce points but flipped the field on Navy which is huge considering how bad our punting game is.

You are just upset you didn’t get your A Tale of Two Cities I told you so moment that you had been setting up all year for the Air Force game. It blew up in your face. You would rather see Army lose and be right then have Army win and admit that the new offense was a factor in beating Air Force and Navy. Shame on you….

100% correct. He wanted his “I told you so moment” a few weeks after his “video” about why our O-line sucked and why AF and Navy was so good

Then we win both games, and outrush both teams

Now the narrative switches to “it was a gift” and we got lucky

Lucky…as in…5 of last 7 versus air force. 6 of last 8 versus Navy. I guess “lucky” is a synonym for “unprecedented success”

[USMAPAFAN]

I am banking on JM to find some kind of efficient mix of the gun and the under center TO that will force defenses to prepare for both. I think there is a solid solution out there and I think he is the guy who can make it work.

[PrideandDream]

Funny how Troy Calhoun doesn't say you can't run under center. Neither does Newberry. Monken is the one who hasn't figured it out o\Academy games are always hard fought. And this year's Air Force game is a statistical outlier. Sure we beat both. We weren't any better than we've been in the past. We kicked 3 FGs on a short field off of turnovers. And we scored Zero points in the 2nd half.

I'll help you with the Air Force game. We had 1 drive that had more than 7 plays. We got 3 turnovers in the 2nd half and scored zero points. We had 13 total possessions and punted 6 times. We had 1 turnover on downs because we couldn't convert 4th and 1. And one possession that was the end of the game. So 5 possessions produced points. Here they are:

1st Possession and a Bryson Daily 62 yard TD run. 4 Plays
2nd Possession started on the Air Force 34 due to an AFA turnover on downs 4 plays later we kicked a FG from the 28
3rd Possession started on the Air Force 43 due to an AFA fumble. 11 plays later TD
4th Possession started on the Air Force 47 due to an AFA fumble 6 plays later we kick a FG from the 23
7th Possession started on the Air Force 25 due to an Interception 5 plays later we kick a FG from the 21

We effectively scored 20 of the 23 points almost entirely in the 1st quarter. Then we did jack squat the rest of the game. Win? Sure well played? Not by a long stretch. We get 3 more turnovers in the 2nd half and produce no points. All of this and we still had 6 yards total fewer than Air Force that day and we had 11 penalties.

Frankly we were lucky we won both AF and Navy. And easily both those games could have turned out differently. Maybe just our time to have some luck. Truth is our defense and special teams won both games. Our offense did very little in either tame to contribute. Kudos to monken for finding a way but that won't last over time.

I'm happy for you to list out how any offensive changes cumulatively helped us be better this year? I'd love to see your list. 3rd Down Conversions? Time of Possession? Red Zone conversions? Rushing yards? Passing completions %? Passing yards? TDs? Fumbles? Interceptions? Average Rushing Yards? Why don't you go compare all those between 2022 and 2023 and figure out where the overall improvement lies? The ultimate proof is that in the middle of bowl season while even lots of bad teams are in bowls we are at home. That is bad for player development, recruiting, and for money to the Athletic Department. So there are lots of losses we are incurring due to this debacle. But hey we won a trophy.

PD

Our crappy new offense rushed for over 200 yards against Navy and Air Force this year. When is the last time we did that? I prefer under center as well and think we should run it against everybody but Air Force and Navy. Last year we had 1 offensive touchdown in regulation against Air Force and Navy. This year we had 3. Air Force and Navy both had problems defending the gun option this year. Our new offense put together some drives in the second half that didn’t produce points but flipped the field on Navy which is huge considering how bad our punting game is.

You are just upset you didn’t get your A Tale of Two Cities I told you so moment that you had been setting up all year for the Air Force game. It blew up in your face. You would rather see Army lose and be right then have Army win and admit that the new offense was a factor in beating Air Force and Navy. Shame on you….

I don't Judge our success purely based on beating AF and Navy. If you like this mediocrity that led us to 6-6 with two FCS wins and an offense that struggled all year long to include Navy and AF then good for you.

What you continue to miss is the opportunity cost of this decision to change schemes. This team easily could have won 9 or 10 games and been in a bowl plus a CIC.

And to be clear I haven't missed my told you so moment. It exists in the records unfortunately and in the results.

And if you think the new offense was some key factor in the Navy and Air Force games then you weren't watching the defense and special teams plays those two days.

I'm reminded of Nick Saban's quote: "Mediocre People Don't Like High Achievers and High Achievers Don't like Mediocre People." We will never see eye to eye on this issue because you are ok with good and I am not even happy with great.

Continue to hang your hat on 6-6, no bowl, but a CIC. Pretty soon you can be 6-6, no bowl and no CIC. This was a 10 win year, bowl, and CIC at a minimum but we will never know because Monken changed schemes to give us an offense that produced less points, less yards, and more turnovers than what we had previously put up in the old boring scheme.

PD

[PrideandDream]

Funny how Troy Calhoun doesn't say you can't run under center. Neither does Newberry. Monken is the one who hasn't figured it out o\Academy games are always hard fought. And this year's Air Force game is a statistical outlier. Sure we beat both. We weren't any better than we've been in the past. We kicked 3 FGs on a short field off of turnovers. And we scored Zero points in the 2nd half.

I'll help you with the Air Force game. We had 1 drive that had more than 7 plays. We got 3 turnovers in the 2nd half and scored zero points. We had 13 total possessions and punted 6 times. We had 1 turnover on downs because we couldn't convert 4th and 1. And one possession that was the end of the game. So 5 possessions produced points. Here they are:

1st Possession and a Bryson Daily 62 yard TD run. 4 Plays
2nd Possession started on the Air Force 34 due to an AFA turnover on downs 4 plays later we kicked a FG from the 28
3rd Possession started on the Air Force 43 due to an AFA fumble. 11 plays later TD
4th Possession started on the Air Force 47 due to an AFA fumble 6 plays later we kick a FG from the 23
7th Possession started on the Air Force 25 due to an Interception 5 plays later we kick a FG from the 21

We effectively scored 20 of the 23 points almost entirely in the 1st quarter. Then we did jack squat the rest of the game. Win? Sure well played? Not by a long stretch. We get 3 more turnovers in the 2nd half and produce no points. All of this and we still had 6 yards total fewer than Air Force that day and we had 11 penalties.

Frankly we were lucky we won both AF and Navy. And easily both those games could have turned out differently. Maybe just our time to have some luck. Truth is our defense and special teams won both games. Our offense did very little in either tame to contribute. Kudos to monken for finding a way but that won't last over time.

I'm happy for you to list out how any offensive changes cumulatively helped us be better this year? I'd love to see your list. 3rd Down Conversions? Time of Possession? Red Zone conversions? Rushing yards? Passing completions %? Passing yards? TDs? Fumbles? Interceptions? Average Rushing Yards? Why don't you go compare all those between 2022 and 2023 and figure out where the overall improvement lies? The ultimate proof is that in the middle of bowl season while even lots of bad teams are in bowls we are at home. That is bad for player development, recruiting, and for money to the Athletic Department. So there are lots of losses we are incurring due to this debacle. But hey we won a trophy.

PD

Our crappy new offense rushed for over 200 yards against Navy and Air Force this year. When is the last time we did that? I prefer under center as well and think we should run it against everybody but Air Force and Navy. Last year we had 1 offensive touchdown in regulation against Air Force and Navy. This year we had 3. Air Force and Navy both had problems defending the gun option this year. Our new offense put together some drives in the second half that didn’t produce points but flipped the field on Navy which is huge considering how bad our punting game is.

You are just upset you didn’t get your A Tale of Two Cities I told you so moment that you had been setting up all year for the Air Force game. It blew up in your face. You would rather see Army lose and be right then have Army win and admit that the new offense was a factor in beating Air Force and Navy. Shame on you….

100% correct. He wanted his “I told you so moment” a few weeks after his “video” about why our O-line sucked and why AF and Navy was so good

Then we win both games, and outrush both teams

Now the narrative switches to “it was a gift” and we got lucky

Lucky…as in…5 of last 7 versus air force. 6 of last 8 versus Navy. I guess “lucky” is a synonym for “unprecedented success”

Still waiting on your fact filled analysis. AF was a gift. To prove that point I bet you can't find another FBS game that had 6 or more turnovers and only 23 points to show for it. Maybe you don't follow football that closely but 6 turnovers is a statistical anomaly. Defense and special teams were the major contributing factors in the AF game. And just like last year Defense won the Navy game.

[USMAPAFAN]

I agree with your mediocrity comments. Not so much saying we would have 10 wins under center this year. I assume you think the 2 we would have lost would be LSU and Troy. I don’t think we would have beat Syracuse under center and the CC game could have been completely diff if they knew ahead of time we were not running the Gun offense. I think we would have won 9 in a best case scenario. Probably 8 is more fair.

[USMAPAFAN]

I would guess we have never had a service academy game where we were +6 in turnover margin and I don’t think it will ever happen again.

[2mint]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/g ... /263070349

2006 - Army vs. Air Force, 5 1st half Army turnovers led to a 43-0 half time lead for Air Force and Bobby Ross almost quitting at halftime. Ended up being a -5 turnover margin thanks to a meaningless second half fumble by Air Force. That game was a beat down and I think the point that he’s trying to make.

[wpgrad]

Funny how Troy Calhoun doesn't say you can't run under center. Neither does Newberry. Monken is the one who hasn't figured it out o\Academy games are always hard fought. And this year's Air Force game is a statistical outlier. Sure we beat both. We weren't any better than we've been in the past. We kicked 3 FGs on a short field off of turnovers. And we scored Zero points in the 2nd half.

I'll help you with the Air Force game. We had 1 drive that had more than 7 plays. We got 3 turnovers in the 2nd half and scored zero points. We had 13 total possessions and punted 6 times. We had 1 turnover on downs because we couldn't convert 4th and 1. And one possession that was the end of the game. So 5 possessions produced points. Here they are:

1st Possession and a Bryson Daily 62 yard TD run. 4 Plays
2nd Possession started on the Air Force 34 due to an AFA turnover on downs 4 plays later we kicked a FG from the 28
3rd Possession started on the Air Force 43 due to an AFA fumble. 11 plays later TD
4th Possession started on the Air Force 47 due to an AFA fumble 6 plays later we kick a FG from the 23
7th Possession started on the Air Force 25 due to an Interception 5 plays later we kick a FG from the 21

We effectively scored 20 of the 23 points almost entirely in the 1st quarter. Then we did jack squat the rest of the game. Win? Sure well played? Not by a long stretch. We get 3 more turnovers in the 2nd half and produce no points. All of this and we still had 6 yards total fewer than Air Force that day and we had 11 penalties.

Frankly we were lucky we won both AF and Navy. And easily both those games could have turned out differently. Maybe just our time to have some luck. Truth is our defense and special teams won both games. Our offense did very little in either tame to contribute. Kudos to monken for finding a way but that won't last over time.

I'm happy for you to list out how any offensive changes cumulatively helped us be better this year? I'd love to see your list. 3rd Down Conversions? Time of Possession? Red Zone conversions? Rushing yards? Passing completions %? Passing yards? TDs? Fumbles? Interceptions? Average Rushing Yards? Why don't you go compare all those between 2022 and 2023 and figure out where the overall improvement lies? The ultimate proof is that in the middle of bowl season while even lots of bad teams are in bowls we are at home. That is bad for player development, recruiting, and for money to the Athletic Department. So there are lots of losses we are incurring due to this debacle. But hey we won a trophy.

PD

Our crappy new offense rushed for over 200 yards against Navy and Air Force this year. When is the last time we did that? I prefer under center as well and think we should run it against everybody but Air Force and Navy. Last year we had 1 offensive touchdown in regulation against Air Force and Navy. This year we had 3. Air Force and Navy both had problems defending the gun option this year. Our new offense put together some drives in the second half that didn’t produce points but flipped the field on Navy which is huge considering how bad our punting game is.

You are just upset you didn’t get your A Tale of Two Cities I told you so moment that you had been setting up all year for the Air Force game. It blew up in your face. You would rather see Army lose and be right then have Army win and admit that the new offense was a factor in beating Air Force and Navy. Shame on you….

I don't Judge our success purely based on beating AF and Navy. If you like this mediocrity that led us to 6-6 with two FCS wins and an offense that struggled all year long to include Navy and AF then good for you.

What you continue to miss is the opportunity cost of this decision to change schemes. This team easily could have won 9 or 10 games and been in a bowl plus a CIC.

And to be clear I haven't missed my told you so moment. It exists in the records unfortunately and in the results.

And if you think the new offense was some key factor in the Navy and Air Force games then you weren't watching the defense and special teams plays those two days.

I'm reminded of Nick Saban's quote: "Mediocre People Don't Like High Achievers and High Achievers Don't like Mediocre People." We will never see eye to eye on this issue because you are ok with good and I am not even happy with great.

Continue to hang your hat on 6-6, no bowl, but a CIC. Pretty soon you can be 6-6, no bowl and no CIC. This was a 10 win year, bowl, and CIC at a minimum but we will never know because Monken changed schemes to give us an offense that produced less points, less yards, and more turnovers than what we had previously put up in the old boring scheme.

PD

This is rich coming from a guy who, on this board, repeatedly boasts and puffs out chest for the 1995 team. That 1995 team that won 2 FBS games and lost to air force by 3 touchdowns. But i bet you dont consider that team mediocre cause, hey, you beat 4-8 boston college!!