Offense? Where does it go.

[ARMORMAN]

I would add one further, almost psychological factor; and this admittedly comes from my Armor lineage:

To me, the under-center triple run-based offense is an OFFENSIVE MINDSET into itself. It takes the fight to the enemy. Linemen fire out, either low to cut, or higher in a zone. Either way, they look to flatten the other guy. It's belligerent, it's violent, and it's perfect for future combat leaders who play football at ARMY.

When you pass, on the other hand, it's more of a DEFENSIVE mindset for our line. What's the first move by the O line? Typically, it's a step or 2 BACKWARDS. They are not looking to punch the other guy. They're looking to inhibit his path to the quarterback. They're looking to get in the way, or slow him down. It doesn't foster aggression, imho.

I'm not saying that passing is all bad. Hell, I love it when, after a ton of run plays, we suddenly see our WR streaking downfield and clear of the nearest defender by 10 yards. I even enjoy an occasional skinny post off a fullback fake, or a wheel route to Marshall or Robinson. But I am saying that those plays just keep the defense honest and loose. They are not the base plan. The base plan is to do what we did vs CC. Run the damn ball down their throats, eat 8 or 9 minutes of clock, and push the pile in from the 2.

THAT'S ARMY FOOTBALL.

[USMAPAFAN]

Agree in full about the offensive mindset. I can’t imagine after the CC game that offensive line wasn’t thinking “Oh hell yeah we can”. When under center with Army’s willingness to go for it on 4th and 2 or less from just about anywhere on the field it boils down to having 3 plays to get 8 yards. This is the reason the 260 lb FB works so well. We don’t need Buchannon or Riley to gallop and break a huge run. We consistently need 2-3 yards per play. And to add to the psychological portion, when we execute and run it down the other teams throat in short gains, I would say we completely demoralizes their defense.

[PrideandDream]

I agree on both accounts.

I would add that even though the 260lb fullback works we are better with superior offensive line play and a small fullback maybe 220-230lbs that can both break one but more importantly can help sustain a drive.

PD

[kfan12]

I get all of that. Kudos on the work there. The reality is, however, I believe one of the principal reasons Thatcher's offense hasn't progressed is because there isn't anyone who can teach the O Line how to execute it. We weren't sustaining many blocks last year, as JM pointed out over and over, but guys were in the correct position to at least make contact, largely based on what prior coaches taught them. We've had guys in every game this year, heading downfield as though we were under center and never making contact with anyone. That just hasn't changed. Thatcher's Offense, Mike Leach's, Emory Bellard's, Fisher DeBerry's, pop Warner's, it doesn't matter what you run with if you don't have anyone who can teach the O line what to do, it isn't going to be successful at any level absent overwhelming talent. Perhaps that is Thatcher's problem, perhaps it falls elsewhere. I'm just not convinced the problem we've seen growing for three years using two schemes was fixed simply by going back to scheme one for a game.

[RABBLE]

I would add one further, almost psychological factor; and this admittedly comes from my Armor lineage:

To me, the under-center triple run-based offense is an OFFENSIVE MINDSET into itself. It takes the fight to the enemy. Linemen fire out, either low to cut, or higher in a zone. Either way, they look to flatten the other guy. It's belligerent, it's violent, and it's perfect for future combat leaders who play football at ARMY.

When you pass, on the other hand, it's more of a DEFENSIVE mindset for our line. What's the first move by the O line? Typically, it's a step or 2 BACKWARDS. They are not looking to punch the other guy. They're looking to inhibit his path to the quarterback. They're looking to get in the way, or slow him down. It doesn't foster aggression, imho.

I'm not saying that passing is all bad. Hell, I love it when, after a ton of run plays, we suddenly see our WR streaking downfield and clear of the nearest defender by 10 yards. I even enjoy an occasional skinny post off a fullback fake, or a wheel route to Marshall or Robinson. But I am saying that those plays just keep the defense honest and loose. They are not the base plan. The base plan is to do what we did vs CC. Run the damn ball down their throats, eat 8 or 9 minutes of clock, and push the pile in from the 2.

THAT'S ARMY FOOTBALL.

I would 100% agree. Cut block rule or not, just look at our record since 1984 when Coach Jim Young first introduced the Wishbone. We had great success with it over the years because no opponents except AF and Navy used it.
Look what happened this past Saturday when we surprised CC with the TO. It worked and it STILL would work because nobody is used to see it. So now this year we junked it for the usual standard fare of the gun formation.
Starting next year we will continue to use it playing 14 teams of the AAC. These teams already know how to defend the Gun and with in a couple of years we will be like the rest of the league. Just another team trying to win 3-4 games in League play. We will go nowhere fast, spinning wheels in the process.
Erily similer in 2000 when Todd Berry dumped the TO in favor of what all the other teams were doing, We all know what happpened back then. History is a great teacher. Too bad those on the current staff apparently know know history or they are tending to disregard it.
The current Supe will retire. Coach Monken will leave for greener pastures, AD Beebe will do the same and we will be stuck with a new regime that think the pro set will work for Army.

( Last week I shined up my crystal ball, threw in a little Nostradamus with it and this forecast appeared almost immediately and it read--"TAKE IT TO THE BANK".

On the bottom of my ball, there was another inscription in small print that said, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE AAC AND FAST"

[USMAPAFAN]

I’ll preface this comment with the fact I will take JM any day of the week and twice on Tuesday, but if our main problem is position coaches specifically the offensive line then it’s his job to identify it and address it. The Buck stops with him.

[kfan12]

I’ll preface this comment with the fact I will take JM any day of the week and twice on Tuesday, but if our main problem is position coaches specifically the offensive line then it’s his job to identify it and address it. The Buck stops with him.

Agreed

[GO 150s 87]

Bryson Dailey is far better suited for running the under center TO. Even his Dad agreed with me on that when I had a drink with him after the AF game. Dailey is like the second coming of Ronnie McAda (and also from Texas!). One of the beautiful aspects of the CC game is that, unlike in the gun, Dailey did not run the majority of the snaps. He did a great job running as always, but an even better job making reads and distributing the load.

[Dong Fong '09]

A key factor why our offense was horrible for several years is partially because the offensive coordinator regressed to the point that everyone in the stadium could predict every single play. Hard to execute when the defense knows what you are going to run (qb off tackle every play with no pitch option).

Also we played Tyler at qb for three years even though he was not good.

Our qb coach against cc called one of the best games For us I’ve seen in years. Also daily seems like the perfect guy to execute the triple option.

[PrideandDream]

I would disagree. The idea of a good football team is that you can tell the defense the play you are running and they can't stop it. It's a game of execution first and foremost. Deception is a secondary factor. This is even more true at Army. I'm not saying we didn't need some diversity in play calling we did but it's hard to put the defense on it's heels when you can't run the dive for 2-3 yards because the interior o line doesn't execute well. It's why we for many years could line up on 4th and short and deliver. Over and over we ran the sneak or the QB power or the dive/trap. no passes no reverses no counters, just straight ahead power football. This is the attitude and execution we have to get back to if we are going to be successful.

Scheme is always secondary to execution.

PD