Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

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wp1994
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by wp1994 »

This is my last comment on this topic.

I’m disappointed in many of you who hold yourselves up as graduates of West Point. I pray that none of you ever have a family member become the victim of sexual harassment or of a sexual assault. To denigrate the Superintendent as a REMF or any other term you want to call him simply highlights your own insanity. More importantly, it shows me you are a person with whom I will not attempt to have a reasonable conversation. Good night.

Beat ‘em!
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Go Frogs
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by Go Frogs »

Guys.... IMO lets put this on a different board and keep this one strictly for Army Football.

Thanks
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madjackv48
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by madjackv48 »

Go Frogs doesn't like politics on this board? Neither do I, but the Academy introduced the politics, not ARMORMAN. It is relevant, very relevant, I think, to Army football. If I had a son recruited by Army and Navy, I would probably tell him to go to USNA, thence to USMC. A testosterone-laced high school FB player who's paying attention won't want to associate himself with this nonsense. This sort of activity at WP will probably affect recruiting. The coaching staff will have to be on the top of their game to explain why our Soldier's School is preaching the evils of Toxic Masculinity. Would we have held TM classes before D-Day and expected those heroic soldiers to go to an almost certain death?
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PrideandDream
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by PrideandDream »

My opinion.

When you stop for the whole day and expose the Corps (men and women) to movies and speakers then you have made this a top priority. Repeating the event year in and year out you have ingrained it into culture. I don't believe anyone has said that they support sexual harassment or that the goal shouldn't be zero. However, what is being said is that this priority and emphasis seems out of line with the greater mission of the academy and ultimately endangers the Warrior Ethos that we want to instill.

From my perspective I saw numerous harassment cases when I was at USMA. What isn't being discussed often enough is the role that females play and that the problem that "chain of command" play when it comes to harassment. Additionally, I would add that the definition of "Harrassment" is pretty broad. Everyone likely has a different tolerance for what's acceptable. See the link below for the official definition.

EEOC Sexual Harassment Definition



A few scenarios to consider:

A male cadet remarks to a female about her body or how she looks. Is that "harassment"? What if a female says something to a male? What if a male says something? What if a one male cadet says something to another male cadet in the shower? What if someone says nothing but just looks at him suspiciously? Same question for females. And how long or how many repetitions before it's harrassment?

A male and female have relationship and are in the same chain of command say a Cow and a Yearling in the same company. They get caught by another cadet engaged in any level of intimacy from holding hands to full intercourse. Who's fault is it? Can either claim harassment to avoid USCC punishment of said behavior?

How about multiple relationships with multiple partners? Ever seen this play out? With one cadet getting caught cheating with another cadet and then jealousy prompting one to claim harrassment? This has happened.

Or the old we "had" a realtionship and now it's over and I'm sad or depressed and decide I wasn't happy and claim harassment.

Each of these has real pitfalls.

The way I see most of this is that we encourage reporting of almost anything we find offensive. Which leaves every conceivable scenario open to a massive level of interpretation. Now the reality is that the devil is in the details and although there has been a rise in reporting sexual harassment across all universities there are all kinds of levels. And I would surmise that the number of people that felt empowered to resolve their own issue has gone down because now you just tell someone and put the issue on their plate vs having to work out your own solution. Especially, when you feel slighted, jealous, or fear potential consequence (i.e. restriction, walking tours, rank demotion, counseling, humiliation, etc). Now I'm not talking about physical abuse or rape in the traditional sense. I am talking about resolving conflict between individuals where unwanted words and actions are felt to be inappropriate. These are now legally adults. Are we giving them the tools to sort it out on their own?

To be honest, i believe males do this all the time. They will fight, they will argue, they will settle their scores with each other when any type of harassment goes too far. Rarely do you hear of men complaining of harrassment from other men. Though it happens all the time and repeatedly. Why is that? Why is it that women aren't empowered to do the same? I might argue like Armorman because we've abandoned traditional roles and the realities of the differences between sexes. When you have each sex trying to embody the natural characteristics of each other it all gets lost. Men don't understand how to control their aggression and emotions and their role to treat women with respect and dignity and we make women try to express their own competitive nature and aggression which is not always to the extent what a male might have and at the same time lower the expectations about how women should act so not to provoke sexual responses from men. It's not ok for a male to comment on how a female looks. However, it's totally ok for a female to go around and wear yoga pants and sports bra. I would suggest society might be better when men understand not to speak to women or touch a woman in any manner that doesn't exhibit respect for them. And women should understand that men can be provoke by how they dress, act, speak to men as well. It's a two way street in my opinion. I'm not suggesting that women need to be covered head to toe or wear a hijab or no makeup but more awareness of the visual and verbal message you send might not be a bad thing.

It's a real issue. My first reaction to the whole thing is just make a no tolerance policy of relationships within the Corp and violation of the policy results in expulsion for both cadets involved. That would never work. These are 18-25 year olds with raging hormones and emotions. Trying to navigate a prestigious, high stress, ultra competitive, zero defect, environment where failure isn't an option is extremely hard for these cadets.

As Armorman said it's all a social experiment. You can be on either side of this issue. The reality is though that if it winds up costing the lives of America's sons and daughters because it's not handled the right way then it really is a sad situation.

PD
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ArmyRoadFan7
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by ArmyRoadFan7 »

Good post PrideandDream, the academy better have nailed down a concrete definition of sexual harassment otherwise they are waisting their time. I heard countless times during my time in the Army that the female determines what is harassment and when female soldiers were asked if certain incidents would be harassing to them their most often response was "what does the guy look like?" That standard is ridiculous and it appears to me is still being used Army wide. To solve a problem you must identify what it is and the possible causes for it. Unfortunately, we have many that are more concerned with virtue-signaling and preening.
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by kfan12 »

AirCav07 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:26 pm
Armorman, your post is the dumbest thing I have read today. I'm an instructor at WP right now and the stand down days have been a net positive; to have the entire post (cadets and faculty) to reflect on how to eliminate sexual assault is a good thing...not a bad thing. West Point has had consistently higher numbers of sexual assault reports for years, so I find your post very disheartening and dismissive of the issue.
an alternative view. Yours is the dumbest and most misleading thing I have read today.

You read a page and a half of content describing why terms like "toxic masculinity" and leftist dogma on identity and gender politics have no place at the United States Military Academy and twisted that to say Armorman doesn't support eliminating sexual assault. You either failed reading comprehension or are quibbling to the point of intentionally misrepresenting what was said...either one of which would have driven and honor inquiry when I was a cadet. If this is who you are as an instructor, you are part of a problem of continuing to water down the warrior ethos for BS social agendas and demonstrating a lack of candor to the current crop of cadets matriculating through the school.
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ArmyRedLeg
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by ArmyRedLeg »

I feel like the thread has reached the pits of West Point discourse. Not sure what it has to do with the football team.
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hrm
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by hrm »

kfan12 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:46 pm
an alternative view. Yours is the dumbest and most misleading thing I have read today.

You read a page and a half of content describing why terms like "toxic masculinity" and leftist dogma on identity and gender politics have no place at the United States Military Academy and twisted that to say Armorman doesn't support eliminating sexual assault. You either failed reading comprehension or are quibbling to the point of intentionally misrepresenting what was said...either one of which would have driven and honor inquiry when I was a cadet. If this is who you are as an instructor, you are part of a problem of continuing to water down the warrior ethos for BS social agendas and demonstrating a lack of candor to the current crop of cadets matriculating through the school.
^^^ This. If anything, AirCav07's post--and in his capacity as a WP Instructor no less--magnifies and amplifies Armorman's initial worry.
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kfan12
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by kfan12 »

wp1994 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:12 pm
This is my last comment on this topic.

I’m disappointed in many of you who hold yourselves up as graduates of West Point. I pray that none of you ever have a family member become the victim of sexual harassment or of a sexual assault. To denigrate the Superintendent as a REMF or any other term you want to call him simply highlights your own insanity. More importantly, it shows me you are a person with whom I will not attempt to have a reasonable conversation. Good night.

Beat ‘em!
"hold yourselves up as graduates?" What does that even mean? You are or you are not. You can hold yourself up as a beacon of morality; you can hold yourself up as a standard of excellence; you can hold yourself up as an example of great leadership, but you are either a graduate or not.

When you have no reasoned-logical argument, retreat to baseless emotionalism often works...unless you are addressing the long grey line which has largely been educated along an engineering curriculum. Most of us are swayed by reason and recognize appeals to weak mindedness.
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hrm
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Re: Toxic Masculinity? WTF????

Post by hrm »

kfan12 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:25 am
wp1994 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:12 pm
This is my last comment on this topic.

I’m disappointed in many of you who hold yourselves up as graduates of West Point. I pray that none of you ever have a family member become the victim of sexual harassment or of a sexual assault. To denigrate the Superintendent as a REMF or any other term you want to call him simply highlights your own insanity. More importantly, it shows me you are a person with whom I will not attempt to have a reasonable conversation. Good night.

Beat ‘em!
"hold yourselves up as graduates?" What does that even mean? You are or you are not. You can hold yourself up as a beacon of morality; you can hold yourself up as a standard of excellence; you can hold yourself up as an example of great leadership, but you are either a graduate or not.

When you have no reasoned-logical argument, retreat to baseless emotionalism often works...unless you are addressing the long grey line which has largely been educated along an engineering curriculum. Most of us are swayed by reason and recognize appeals to weak mindedness.
^^^ Agreed. Facts and reason matter; "emoting" does not.
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