This is a big change...

Discussing Army Black Knights football, basketball and more. United States Military Academy sports forum. West Point athletics discussion board.
User avatar
PrideandDream
Warrior
Posts: 986
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:36 am
x 2
x 127
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by PrideandDream »

WrekDivr wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:10 pm
prideandream wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:10 am The question is do we have a scheme problem or an execution problem?
I think these may be related. It sounds like the one of the things Thatcher is trying to do is make our offense easier to execute. I keep thinking about Steve Chaloult’s comment on the Army football show about how much harder it was for an offensive lineman to execute our offense last year than it was when he played. It sounds like Thatcher wants to make that easier so we fully execute on a higher percentage of plays.
The only issue I have with that is that Air Force has no problem with executing it. With all due respect to Chalout if one academy gets it done then so should another. Air Force out rushed us this year while playing in a conference by about 30 yards per game. Same blocking rules apply to them. I just can't get past the number of plays I've seen where our guys just got beat and it wasn't the rules beating them.

PD
1 x
Dong Fong '09
Warrior
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:58 am
x 8
x 104
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by Dong Fong '09 »

prideandream wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:06 pm
WrekDivr wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:10 pm
prideandream wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:10 am The question is do we have a scheme problem or an execution problem?
I think these may be related. It sounds like the one of the things Thatcher is trying to do is make our offense easier to execute. I keep thinking about Steve Chaloult’s comment on the Army football show about how much harder it was for an offensive lineman to execute our offense last year than it was when he played. It sounds like Thatcher wants to make that easier so we fully execute on a higher percentage of plays.
The only issue I have with that is that Air Force has no problem with executing it. With all due respect to Chalout if one academy gets it done then so should another. Air Force out rushed us this year while playing in a conference by about 30 yards per game. Same blocking rules apply to them. I just can't get past the number of plays I've seen where our guys just got beat and it wasn't the rules beating them.

PD
i'm not sure i buy into the fact we struggled was because of rules changes. Sure they have an impact, but i agree with you that air force ran the ball well. probably some execution issues like you mentioned, partially players fault and also some of that is on coaching. I think a big problem for us was that we were pretty predictable. You always hear how hard it is to plan for the triple option. I dont think we've really been that hard to prepare for for several years. Coach Ken said as much in his A/N post game conference.
0 x
FSUBulldog0
Warrior
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:31 pm
Location: Denver
x 34
x 28
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by FSUBulldog0 »

I think anyone that was a fan through the transition to Todd Berry is concerned about a change in the way the offense is run. In many ways we've been "Fullback U" for quite some time. I'd put our fullbacks up against anyone in FBS going back to Larry Dixon. If you aren't a little concerned, I'd wonder what you are thinking.

Of course, things have changed through the years. Cut blocking is basically being legislated out of the game. Has that had an impact on our play over the past couple seasons? Probably. Is it the only problem? Probably not. As mentioned earlier, Air Force is still running the ball pretty well, albeit with an easier schedule as the MW was pretty pitiful this year and most of that running attack was through one excellent and durable fullback.

Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic that the new offense will work better than what we've seen the past couple years. From listening to interviews with Thatcher, it seems like he's going to play our FBs in more of an H-back role so their likely to get utilized as blockers (much as Tyson Riley did towards the end of last year when lining up as a SB).
0 x
User avatar
RABBLE
Warrior
Posts: 31024
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:30 pm
x 76
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by RABBLE »

Our OL just was not as talented in 2022 as it was in 2021. Plus the fact that Tyrell Robinson was lost early and Jakobi was nicked up all year and was less effective because of the inexperience of that OL. Other factors too but our execution was a very big factor in the mix.
I think we expected our schedule was also in play. Teams like CC, UTSA and Troy were much better than we expected.
0 x
BlackGrayGold82
Warrior
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:18 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC
x 3
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by BlackGrayGold82 »

I am a bit worried. I understand the NCAA/coaching sustained attack on cut blocking . . . ostensibly for safety of defenders, however, numbers do not support . . . we all know it is about killing-off a confounding offense with which tough disciplined guys can achieve victory over elite athletes. That's the whole issue . . . nothing to do with safety at all.

That said, turn-overs are the number one determinant of success in football. The style option Army has played with QB deep-squat behind center has greatly improved the ball exchange over earlier years, allows the center to get into his assignment immediately, and the run play can develop very quickly. Linebackers have a difficult time making reads on QB becasuse QB normally lines up square and there is very little time to read and react. QB can keep eyes up make his reads through the snap. With pistol/shotgun, QB has to take his eyes off the defense for a moment and that ball exchange increases turn-over risk, takes a moment more time, and allows defenders to see the ball.

I am not convinced that we will find an advantage in a more popular offense simply because we believe that we can better execute than others. Maybe all offenses are QB centric, so with out a good one the offense will simply struggle. Our version of option relies very heavily on quick developing numbers at the LOS and very tough inside running leading to a ball possession game. It is maybe 90% imposing will, and 10% deception. To me, the entertainment value of "wide-open", "make'em defend in depth", "basketball on grass", etc. is of no consequence. I prefer the 7 minute, 75 yard drive!
0 x
Black Gray & Gold Forever
WrekDivr
Warrior
Posts: 2209
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:04 pm
x 92
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by WrekDivr »

BGG82, I’m with you on the long, time-eating drives. Give me the 99-yard drive vs. Oklahoma every day. The problem for me is, we have become less effective at it over the years, particularly against other SAs. That’s true for Navy as well, except when they have Malcom Perry. I’m hoping that we don’t adopt a “popular” offense, but one that works us. Tough, run first, disciplined. Eat the clock, hog the ball and wear them down.
0 x
User avatar
PrideandDream
Warrior
Posts: 986
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:36 am
x 2
x 127
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by PrideandDream »

BINGO!

The minimization of turnovers along with how quickly you can amass numbers at the point of attack have been key for us and are key to the triple option frankly. I think most fans, players, and coaches severely underestimate how powerful an advantage it is to not give defenses time to think and force them to react. And our offense is designed not only to leverage this but also to leverage the angles at which linemen down block. These principles work at every single level of football. You don't see it on Sunday because every NFL team has elite talent and you can run different schemes and work on matchups where you have them.

Go read up on the double wing. Go read about Don Markham, Hugh Wyatt, Steve Calande, and Jack Gregory. All considered Double Wing/ Wing T experts. One of the keys to the whole offense is to pound it inside and leverage mass, angles, quickness, along with deception. The key to the whole thing is the wedge play. The single most boring play in football. But it forces defenses to commit to defend it and stop it because if you can't then it's likely game over.

I believe there is a hidden war that happens in football especially college football every week in season. It's a war of optimizing entertainment/fan experience vs optimizing playing style. The other hidden thing in my mind is that we assume all coaches understand all kinds of schemes and styles of play when in reality many are limited to what they know and what they have been around. It's one of the reasons that AF and Navy and Army too are so good at stopping each other. Then you go play some big program from time to time and they don't know how to stop it even with better athletes? It totally doesn't make sense until you consider that many coaches just don't have the insight into stopping a particular system or style of play.

Anyways, I couldn't agree more that we are risking a tremendous amount by pulling the QB out from under center. And the truth is if we block up front next year like we did last year then I don't care how much creativity there is this thing will be a disaster. Let's all hope I'm wrong.

PD
0 x
Dong Fong '09
Warrior
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:58 am
x 8
x 104
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by Dong Fong '09 »

Another thought I had was what does this new offense mean for a guy like Buchanan? Granted he’s been hurt, but I think he’d be too slow to the hole out of a shotgun to be effective.

I gotta think markel Johnson, who seems very quick, would likely do better as the fullback for this system b
0 x
wpgrad
Warrior
Posts: 1578
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:49 pm
x 117
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by wpgrad »

Dong Fong '09 wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:13 am Another thought I had was what does this new offense mean for a guy like Buchanan? Granted he’s been hurt, but I think he’d be too slow to the hole out of a shotgun to be effective.

I gotta think markel Johnson, who seems very quick, would likely do better as the fullback for this system b
Paul Johnson didnt use TE’s. So when he arrives, that position no longer exists

My understanding is “the plan” is a single RB in pistol formation and that RB is not a FB. The other “rb” lines up sorta behind the tackle. We no longer have a fullback coach
0 x
Dong Fong '09
Warrior
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:58 am
x 8
x 104
Contact:

Re: This is a big change...

Post by Dong Fong '09 »

wpgrad wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:56 am
Dong Fong '09 wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:13 am Another thought I had was what does this new offense mean for a guy like Buchanan? Granted he’s been hurt, but I think he’d be too slow to the hole out of a shotgun to be effective.

I gotta think markel Johnson, who seems very quick, would likely do better as the fullback for this system b
Paul Johnson didnt use TE’s. So when he arrives, that position no longer exists

My understanding is “the plan” is a single RB in pistol formation and that RB is not a FB. The other “rb” lines up sorta behind the tackle. We no longer have a fullback coach
do you know what vitis new role is? team's website still shows him as offensive line coach.
0 x
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AdsBot [Google], Google [Bot], stash76 and 738 guests