New Offense

Discussing Army Black Knights football, basketball and more. United States Military Academy sports forum. West Point athletics discussion board.
WrekDivr
Warrior
Posts: 2209
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:04 pm
x 92
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by WrekDivr »

Without any Army football to watch, we might as well speculate a bit about our new offense. I thought it would be interesting to compare Army’s full season run/pass split vs Nebraska Kearny’s (UNK) when Drew Thatcher was OC there. Here we go:

In 2022, Army Ran the ball 646 times and had 104 pass attempts. Army ran the ball 86% of the time. When we did pass, we averaged 8.8 yards per pass. We averaged 5.4 yards per rush attempt. We averaged 4.9 yards per attempt.

During our best year under JM, 2018 (AKA Kelvin Hopkins 1.0), Army ran the ball 844 times and had 98 pass attempts. Army ran the ball about 90% of the time even with a good passing QB. When we did pass, we averaged 10.6 yards per attempt.

In 2022, UNK ran the ball 490 times and had 179 pass attempts. They ran the ball about 73% of the time. When they passed, they averaged 8.5 yards per play. When they ran, they averaged 5.9 yards per run.

I also took a look at UNK in 2021 and their run/pass split was identical to 2022.

My takeaways from the UNK stats are
o They were run first
o They threw more short passes than Army
o Despite being run first, they threw the ball 2-2.5X as many times as Army

When Army had its best record, we threw 1 of 10 times and tended to throw longer passes.

I am a bit surprised at how often UNK threw the ball. I was expecting more passes than Army, perhaps something like 80% runs. I guess that a 73/27 mix isn’t that far off, but I have a tough time seeing JM throw the ball 1 out of every 4 plays.
0 x
wpgrad
Warrior
Posts: 1578
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:49 pm
x 117
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by wpgrad »

WrekDivr wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 6:36 pm Without any Army football to watch, we might as well speculate a bit about our new offense. I thought it would be interesting to compare Army’s full season run/pass split vs Nebraska Kearny’s (UNK) when Drew Thatcher was OC there. Here we go:

In 2022, Army Ran the ball 646 times and had 104 pass attempts. Army ran the ball 86% of the time. When we did pass, we averaged 8.8 yards per pass. We averaged 5.4 yards per rush attempt. We averaged 4.9 yards per attempt.

During our best year under JM, 2018 (AKA Kelvin Hopkins 1.0), Army ran the ball 844 times and had 98 pass attempts. Army ran the ball about 90% of the time even with a good passing QB. When we did pass, we averaged 10.6 yards per attempt.

In 2022, UNK ran the ball 490 times and had 179 pass attempts. They ran the ball about 73% of the time. When they passed, they averaged 8.5 yards per play. When they ran, they averaged 5.9 yards per run.

I also took a look at UNK in 2021 and their run/pass split was identical to 2022.

My takeaways from the UNK stats are
o They were run first
o They threw more short passes than Army
o Despite being run first, they threw the ball 2-2.5X as many times as Army

When Army had its best record, we threw 1 of 10 times and tended to throw longer passes.

I am a bit surprised at how often UNK threw the ball. I was expecting more passes than Army, perhaps something like 80% runs. I guess that a 73/27 mix isn’t that far off, but I have a tough time seeing JM throw the ball 1 out of every 4 plays.
Thats good stuff!! Nicely written up.

My gut is we will throw at least 2x as much as we have in year's past. So if we did 104 passes in 12 games, thats 8 passes per game. I think we will be double that in 2023.

As I have posted before, a guy like monken doesn't fire his LONG TIME friend and coach unless he is planning to make changes. If we passed 8 times a game in 2022 with Davis, and we pass 8 times a game in 2023 with new guy, I will be 100% shocked.
0 x
WrekDivr
Warrior
Posts: 2209
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:04 pm
x 92
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by WrekDivr »

wpgrad - your take makes sense. I think the other difference is that more of the passes will be quicker and shorter. With the flexbone TO, most passes are over the heads of the D as they crowd the line. We averaged 63 Offensive plays per game last year and 71 in 2018, so 16 passes are 22-25% of our offensive plays. This frequency is less likely to catch someone by surprise making it tougher to just throw it over their heads.
0 x
hammerdown
Warrior
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:39 am
x 6
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by hammerdown »

Matt Drinkell who last year was TE coach and is now
Co-off. Cord. with Thatcher, not Asst. OC. Is there any
chance JM did this to keep some of the old offense
in play ?
0 x
Coach MC
Warrior
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:54 am
x 27
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by Coach MC »

The offense will have a pistol look, featuring a QB in shotgun and two running backs. Definitely read option/triple option fundamentals, so the FB is not obsolete just yet. Not sure whether we will be in 12 or 13 personnel. My guess is there will be a TE either in line or flexed out a bit. Also, not sure of blocking schemes. There seems to be a great deal of excitement in the program over this, but I think everyone also realizes this is new so not sure how long it will take to fully grasp it. Definitely a run heavy package, so it will be interesting to see how they get all these talented running backs onto the field.

Had to be done in some fashion though. Having small QBs, or any QB under center the majority of the time just wasn't sustainable in the new age of football, particularly against teams whose defenses are dominant or really quick and athletic up front. Those types of teams were gapping and slanting, running twists and stunts, anticipating snap counts and creating general havoc in the backfield. Our linemen couldn't handle it.
0 x
User avatar
PrideandDream
Warrior
Posts: 986
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:36 am
x 2
x 127
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by PrideandDream »

Well accept that Air Force ran under center and out of the flexbone and traditional TO. Being under center wasn't the issue but execution by the O line was. It's been all over the film the last couple of years.

This is a huge gamble and will seal Monken's fate. He will either be the hero or the goat. No in between.

PD
0 x
User avatar
kfan12
Warrior
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:33 am
x 2
x 70
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by kfan12 »

The biggest gamble may have been keeping Mike Viti as O-line coach and perhaps Conor Hughes as the Head Football Strength and Conditioning Coach as well. Nice thing to do in giving Viti more run, we will see if it was the best thing for Army Football.
0 x
BG
User avatar
ARMORMAN
Warrior
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:00 am
x 2
x 110
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by ARMORMAN »

Good points all, especially the "mystery" of why af has had continued success with an offensive scheme that went south on us. Personally, I think it had a lot to do with bigger and better O line talent/coaching/blocking schemes, hugely more effective/innovative OC play-calling, and allowing QB's to actually run the option. Having Roberts carrying the mail didn't hurt either. That kid was like the second-coming of Christian McCaffrey. Speed/power to burn...

In any event, we are where we are, and I for one am very impressed and excited. Coach Monken has made a "bold range change" to use an artillery phrase. It takes guts and vision to do what he's done. I like that it's still a run-heavy offense, I like that it uses short passing routes which don't require QB's with cannon arms, and what I REALLY like is that it gets the ball in the hands of legitimate play-makers by using smart QB's who are allowed to read the defense. With all the possibilities, defenses can no longer just stack us.

Aside from our prior OC's predictable and ineffective play-calling, the thing that most frustrated me was seeing our talent go vastly under-utilized. Go all the way back to Fred C Cooper, or Kell Walker, or most recently, Tyrell Robinson. Think Edgar Poe or now Isaiah Alston. Many other examples of great run/catch talent mostly wasted by having them blocking cornerbacks or linebackers while our B backs try to pound out 3 yards with no hole. Not very innovative, not very imaginative, and in the end, not very effective.

Speaking of Tyrell, I'd sure be interested if anyone knows how his rehab is progressing....
Last edited by ARMORMAN on Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Dong Fong '09
Warrior
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:58 am
x 8
x 104
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by Dong Fong '09 »

kfan12 wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:03 am The biggest gamble may have been keeping Mike Viti as O-line coach and perhaps Conor Hughes as the Head Football Strength and Conditioning Coach as well. Nice thing to do in giving Viti more run, we will see if it was the best thing for Army Football.
i thought i heard that drinkall took over the O-line?

Drinkall's twitter says he's the co-offensive coordinator/O-line, but our website says he still tight ends
0 x
Dong Fong '09
Warrior
Posts: 892
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:58 am
x 8
x 104
Contact:

Re: New Offense

Post by Dong Fong '09 »

prideandream wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:31 am Well accept that Air Force ran under center and out of the flexbone and traditional TO. Being under center wasn't the issue but execution by the O line was. It's been all over the film the last couple of years.

This is a huge gamble and will seal Monken's fate. He will either be the hero or the goat. No in between.

PD
i agree...i'm not sure we needed to totally revamp our offense, we just needed someone else running it
0 x
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], DoubleNuts, Google Adsense [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], neumanna1 and 363 guests